EWS #75 Questions from Viewers (18)  - Education & Teenage Issues - 2

July 17, 2021

Alina (0:00:00)
Namaste. We welcome you all to the continuing series, Evenings with Sraddhalu. I'm happy to introduce myself. I'm Alina and together with Joel. Namaste Joel. Namaste Alina. Happy to have another session today on the same topic, education and teenage issues. Last time we took some questions on education and lifestyle of young adults. Today we will continue taking the same category of questions on the theme education, media, alcohol, smoking, drugs. But the theme will stay, the spirituality that is being mixed with drugs and how we can make some light on this mixture. We'd like to invite our teacher Sraddhalu. Namaste.

Sraddhalu (0:01:18):
Namaste. Happy to be with all of you.

Alina (0:01:21):
Thank you for accepting our invitation and there's many questions waiting from our viewers to be answered and we will have as the first question a very controversial subject on cannabis or marijuana, how is it very well known throughout the world. Because nowadays it's being used for recreational purposes, for medical purposes, using the extract CBD oil, its very commonly used. So I will read the question of Vibhav. I have seen lately that a lot of teenagers are getting into marijuana. Can you advise on the effects of the same?

Sraddhalu (0:02:17):
Yes, so this is in fact a continuation of something we had partly discussed last time. And in our discussion, we had covered many other things before that, education and technological changes. But we ended with this discussion on drugs. We looked at the effect of drugs from a yogic perspective, what it actually does, that it does not represent a spiritual opening but a horizontal opening at the level of your current consciousness or the level that the particular drug represents and generally these act at a level which is very close to the physical in the ranges that Sri Aurobindo calls the lower vital and there you have all kinds - some of the most beautiful and some of the most ugly and the most hideous and everything in between. But they represent in terms of consciousness something lower than what we most normally live in as human beings. And this is the reason why the effect of the drugs is an exaggeration of your emotional state. We discussed four kinds of harm that the use of drugs can or do have on us. The first being at the level of the nervous system and the brain itself. The second one, which is at the... because it damages something even permanently, so that it prevents you from being able to access that. The second, which is the breaking of your boundaries by force, by damage to your protective shell of consciousness, individuality, aura, whichever way you represent it, which leaves holes, which leaves you punched with gaps through which not only you remain vulnerable to external influences but also and especially if in that state you have had a contact with a vital being, that being now has access to you whether you like it or not, even when you have come out of the effect of the drug because the hole remains. Even if the hole is partly filled, it's a vulnerability and so often people find themselves opening it inadvertently in times of stress or sometimes when attempting a spiritual concentration or meditation. So that affects and that's actually the fourth point of damage. It affects your ability to open to higher ranges because you have gaps on the lower, the moment there's a pressure to open, the vessel spills on these intermediate gaps rather than opening higher up. So what I find often is people who have these kinds of holes, for them to enter a state of intense concentration tends to make them vulnerable and break on these intermediate levels rather than open to something higher. The third point was of course the transition at the time of death. When you leave the physical body, you find yourself first opening to these levels rather than being able to go straight to your own higher levels or to that which the Divine Mother may assist you in transitioning to after leaving the physical body. So we discussed this in some detail. We also discussed what can be done to heal the damage from the spiritual point of view. Of course, you have therapeutic and occult means on other levels, but that was the point at which we ended. I was very grateful that both Alina and Joel shared candidly their experiences and I'm tempted to draw on their experience now again, even in answer to this question and other questions. So not just marijuana which has of course medical benefits equally as much as its psychotropic effects. And so that's part of the problem today that it's difficult to distinguish between the good side of its use and the misuse of it. And so this question I will combine with another question to them which is simply this, what would you offer as advice to young people who face peer pressure or simply the curiosity to experiment with drugs? And this pressure is increasing today in part because the media presents it not only as a normal lifestyle and also the media offers to you through cinema and other means, as an escape from stresses. So under such a circumstances what would, what was your experience and what would you offer as an advice? Perhaps we start with Joël.

Joel (0:06:59):
Yes, so just to come back on the question of marijuana, and it can be used also for the question of the peer pressure. Having worked in the field of, in an NGO, was centred on harm reduction. I want to emphasise the fact that what is also commonly distributed as information among youngsters is that ganja, marijuana, pot, is not a big deal, it's a light drug, it's not very problematic. Actually, this is really a false notion. It's a heavy drug, like alcohol, like others, and the damage in terms of social life or health are real. I've seen many people starting with one joint in the evening, and then starting after a few months, smoking early morning because they had the need to have some in their system. So that should be, and could be used also for peers who feel like, oh, you know, just take a puff, just take a puff. No, actually it's a heavy drug. It's like others. So just as a final comment for peer pressure. So since I've worked in the harm reduction field for drug users, after having worked a few years, I left for another job and I met one of my ex-colleagues a few years after and he told me something very true. He said, you know, the best advice we should have given to all those youngsters in our harmed addiction field is not to use drugs at all. So yeah, that was my conclusion after being a professional in that field also.

Sraddhalu (0:08:51):
Thank you. Joel, just to remind us, Joel is a psychologist and certified family therapist. And Alina is a certified acupuncture therapist and Shiatsu therapist. And she also has been through the same kinds of issues. Alina?

Alina
0:09:06
Yes. So from my experience, it's very common for me to see that people are smoking marijuana even before getting a massage. So there's a lot of people who say to me, please give me five minutes, I need to roll this joint. So in order that they get a total release and not having any mental disturbance or for some of them, because I'm curious sometimes I'm asking, and they say I cannot function, my brain cannot function if I don't smoke. Some of them maybe they are hyperactive and then marijuana gives them a temporary relief, or some use it because they say they are smoking and they are giving self-justification for why they are smoking. And it's just incredible how Joel said that it's taken for a very easy drug and people consider this is not a drug. It's used for health benefit, but most of them are truly having an addiction on these drugs. It's very hard to say nowadays with all this temptation and because people take this model on TV or friends, who are so-called very cool friends,  and they are getting inspired from their behaviour. And I think probably we first should become aware of if I truly have a curiosity to experience that drug itself or because I want to be part of a group and that group is doing drugs, whatever, or maybe they're smoking or whatever they're doing. The fact that I want to become part of that group and everyone who is cool is in that group and maybe that's the need actually. So I would say to these young adults who are really interested on drugs, to, okay, if you want, try and take it, but don't take it in a social environment. So you can see what the drug gives you itself. Do it alone. You don't have to do it with anyone if you really want to see what the drug itself does to you. And then you will be surprised that it would not give probably the same effect if it would be taken in a group. So I say that the temptation is definitely much higher when you are in a group and then you should carefully watch the group and the people with whom you are surrounding yourself and just simply turning your attention towards those people who are true, positive influences or examples for your life. And maybe just becoming very aware of that fact could make a difference. Thank you.

Sraddhalu (0:12:42):
It's a very interesting point. Yes.

Joel (0:12:44):
I would like to make just one small nuance to what Alina just said, as an ex-harm reduction specialist. So if it's a good idea not to take a drug for the first time with a big group because you want to join them and see the difference, I would not recommend to use a new drug for the first time alone. I would recommend to do it then maybe just with one trusted friend.

Alina (0:13:08):
With a friend, yes.

Joel (0:13:09):
With one trusted friend, somebody of whom you are close already, so there's no gain for the relationship. But at least if you feel bad during that drug use, you will have somebody who could be there for you and accompany you, right? Just a little nuance there

Alina (0:13:24):
But not taking it in a party. I wanted to say that actually. Because if you take it in a party and with a group of people who are having fun with the drug itself. And yeah, I think you're right, Joel. It should be taken at least with someone close who would take care of you and guide you.

Sraddhalu (0:13:52):
This is really the danger involved that all these drugs, and I will add to it also alcohol and to some extent smoking, all of them involve our loss of capacity to discriminate and this is very important to understand. So although you may see in cinema or you may be told, oh it's fun, try for fun, what you're actually being told is lose your ability to judge what is healthy or not healthy good or bad right or wrong safe or unsafe - you're going to lose deliberately, wipe off that ability to realise what is safe for you, for your own survival, and put yourself in danger with actually no real benefit. So this is a very important factor to recognize and I wanted to connect this for a larger discussion later. When you look at the brain, we have this part of the back of the brain which we call the reptilian brain and then the midbrain which is the mammalian brain and then the frontal part of the brain which represents the best of human consciousness. It's here right in front of the forehead that your ability to choose good bad, right wrong, moral discrimination, ethical discrimination or higher aspirations - all of these centre themselves here in the brain operation. The first thing alcohol does it dulls this whole part. And suddenly you feel, ah, there's nothing wrong or right; wow, I'm free. So the sense of freedom is not really a freedom sense. It's rather loss of higher faculty of discrimination which makes you feel very similar to what animals feel in the forest. They don't think is this right or wrong. They just do what the instinct pushes them to. Except their instincts are bound in a narrow groove which is healthy for them. Our instincts have already got mixed up and when you remove the discriminating power, you are open to any impulse, not only yours but also external impulses which, unlike alcohol where also you're open to them, drugs open you to those far more and you're far more vulnerable. So this is an important point to recognize. The second which came out very strongly...

Alina (0:16:04):
Can I make a comment on that? Because I just realised now that what you said before. So, for example, if you are a young kid where the prefrontal cortex is not developed, definitely you don't know how to choose and distinguish if this is good or bad. So starting taking drugs at a very early age which its not advisable for parents to let their kids take drugs at an early age when they don't have the capacity to distinguish, yes, I want to have an experience or no. So, and the second comment would say, as you said, if you're taking a glass of alcohol, if you're taking just a glass of wine, then if someone would come with an offer, although you say I'm not going to take drugs for sure, if someone will come and give you some drugs, you might say yes under the altered influence that you're being in already by the effect of the alcohol. So, it's more delicate, especially for kids. Yes, please go with the second question.

Sraddhalu (0:17:18):
Just to highlight what you said, a single glass of alcohol is enough to make you say, yes to something you would have said no before. Exactly, yes, when you are sober. This is something very important to understand for those who have not had that alcohol glass that it's as easy as a single glass to lose your ability to discriminate or lose your ability to exercise your free choice because when you're saying yes, you're not saying yes because you want to say yes, you're saying because yes because you can't say no under the influence of alcohol.

Alina (0:17:57):
And you are already very excited with that first glass and that's why people say okay first glass is very difficult but everything what comes after is very easy so or you just take a shot of strong alcohol you burn the nose the throat and everything and you cannot distinguish anymore, you can just drink a whole bottle and it's you just losing the of your affinity.

Sraddhalu (0:18:27):
Yes, so this is something very important to recognize.I have seen people, so the reason why I found it extremely important for us to hear directly from both Joel and Alina is because if I were to say you know this is not good for you, the simple response from a young person would be, well you have not tried, what right do you have to say? So what I am offering is an outsiders perspective. What they are offering is an insider's perspective, and of course the two are complementary. So I will continue with a few outsider perspectives. I've had people near me drinking alcohol, sometimes right in front of me, sometimes at a distance, and also do drugs, and I've seen what's happening inside them. From a deeper perspective, it's very clear is the person who is having his alcohol, and it may be even a light beer, there's a point where they slide into a certain state where the consciousness becomes blurred. So it starts with the higher faculties, which get blurred. Suddenly those things don't matter. Or the thing which was nagging you as a guilt, because you had done something which you felt guilty about, that's gone. The sense of guilt has vanished because the sense of right and wrong is blurred out. And then it keeps going down, blurring layer by layer. So it's as if your brain, just to map it because we like to think in terms of biological things, but actually it's states of consciousness from the top down, you're getting blurred. So in the brain, let's say it's starting with the prefrontal cortex and bit by bit it goes all the way back to the reptilian brain, where you are now living like a reptile, at the most basic drives and instincts and you're of course very easy to manipulate and control. So I've watched people in a business meeting where they are plying each other with alcohol with the intention of knocking out the other person's ability to say no or to restrain himself and get him to either reveal a secret or to accept certain things. And each one is proud of his capacity to hold alcohol and not lose their discrimination until the point where they knock out the other first. It's silly. It's even foolish and dangerous. From a spiritual point of view, of course, for those who do not have a higher aspiration, who do not want to develop their own higher faculties, I suppose it doesn't matter. It's for them to choose.

The other point I wanted to highlight in what Joel and Alina shared is this aspect of being with a group or as being in a party where you take a recreational drug or alcohol, where you associate that with the party itself and the fun of being with a group of friends or just being happy together and somehow that is associated with the drug. Those who start like that will not find it as interesting to take the drug independently or even to drink alcohol alone unless they are going through some severe problem of guilt. It serves no purpose. But there is another factor which is involved here and this we see from the deeper yogic perspective, in a group sharing or in a group setting, especially when you are with very close friends, you tend to open out energetically. If you sit together long enough and let's take a very simple space where a family is gathered, interacting, very quickly the aura joins, at the level first of the vital energies and then subsequently other layers. If you're with friends just having fun in a party again, there's the blurring of boundaries as the aura melds and the energies exchange and this can happen even in a formal setting So I've been to a rotary meeting where they have not yet moved on to party. They're just having lectures, discussions and business meetings, sometimes just light fun. I come away from there and I can feel in my entire aura something like 80% is the stuff from that group where I was with. I look at myself and that's not me. Where did this come from? But while I'm with them, I cannot distinguish because what's happening in them as a group and what's happening in me is a continuum. In that state, when the group gets excited about something, you'll find yourself pulled, like in the wake of a stream.

So you're standing, let's say, in a river, the water starts moving and it moves rapidly. You can't stay on the same spot because it's pushing you. So after a point, you let yourself float. You think you're static because relative to the water you're not moving but actually the water is leading you where it wants. Something like that happens in the collective energy. The energy flow and the mood and the states and the thoughts and emotions associated, the values that that group has are now pulling you. At the same time they are also soaking into shaping you, imprinting that pattern as a habit or rooting themselves. You see, it's like if you put dirty water in soil, it will sink in. After that you won't see the water but it's gone in and it's there. So it gets into you and something of it stays there and then after a while it comes up as your own impulse. Now if you did this the first time you would notice the difference. Let's say you went with a group, came back with a pretty strong influx of energies, maybe you take time to wash it off, after a day or two suddenly that thing pops up and if you're conscious you'll notice ah it's that, the effect of that. Even this happens in a movie theatre. You're all sitting and watching a movie. There's a group energy that is rising and falling with the mood of the cinema. And you come out and you realise the heaving of your own energies was actually a much larger heaving. And that's why it's more fun to watch an exciting movie in a group setting than alone. You see, when you're watching alone you don't have the same quantity of energy to give you the high of excitement. So as you watch this, whatever the thriller movie is about, the only energy jumping is yours inside you and it's not much relatively. When you're in a cinema hall or with friends, even four or five friends, the heaving of the group energy is so much bigger and you are a part of it inside. So you feel lifted much more, you feel excited much more, you feel depressed much more also when the group feels it. So that entire exaggeration of the experience is what happens in the group setting. That's the basis of the peer pressure.

Now when something bigger than you is swaying you, compelling you, you don't have the power to say no. You don't even have the discrimination to realise that's not what I want. Afterwards, when that energy is washed out of you, you look back and say, why did I say yes? I didn't plan to. I was so sure I could handle it. What happened? You don't realise it was the group energy that carried you and changed your pattern of thinking, emotions, and overrode your individual freedom. And so this becomes the biggest problem. First of all, there is the association, oh, I'm having fun with friends. And second is this compulsion of the group setting and if you're in a large space with more people then of course your basic discrimination is completely washed out unless you consciously hold it and if you do something very interesting happens. The group will eject you or you will leave the group very quickly. If you maintain your separation after a while you'll feel so out of sorts and out of place, you'll want to go away just from suffocation or the group will start sidelining you and they'll sense you're not part of their group energy and just ignore you or move away. You want to comment on that, Alina?

Alina (0:26:39):
Yes, I felt many times exactly like that. It makes me more clear why at a point you want to step out from this circle or this environment, be with yourself for some time, or maybe you're just with a friend, just stepping out, staying in a corner, absorbing what other people are doing. And I could comment also that, yeah, there's an intensification of whether, if you're taking drugs and the state of mind in which you are, maybe it's not so good, maybe you're in depression and maybe the pull of this energetic aura of the whole group doesn't uplift you. Maybe we say in these parties, oh it's good vibes or it's bad vibes. So if it doesn't even lower you up, then you just leave the party with an intensification of that whole mood. So, there's many, many times when I talk to my friends and we say, oh, how did you enjoy the party? Oh, it was bad vibes, was not good, was not maybe uplifting, or they left with a drawing much more intensified after. And it made me clear now that that's what I was experiencing sometimes after you leave the party you might be catching some of these temptations or something that was not in you and it pops out later as a gesture or maybe as a word or some yes even as a thought or something and you think it's yours.

Sraddhalu (0:28:30):
And you think it's yours when actually…. yeah what often happens when people like that are feeling uncomfortable about the group they will step out they'll say for fresh air or they'll say i'm feeling suffocated here let's go out and interestingly after that they will say let's go for a nightcap. You've just had lots of alcohol or drugs with friends. Now you want to go alone or with one very close friend to another place just to wash out all that effect by taking some more alcohol.

Alina (0:28:58):
And many times I see these people, many people are living into a small corner where they're sitting absorbing or maybe they become extra sensitive to what's going on in that party and it's too heavy or we say it's too intense-  the whole party, so we want to step out of those vibes. So yeah it's truly, a lot of people are sensitive actually, that there's something which is not harmonising with or they cannot harmonise with the other group.

Sraddhalu (0:29:32):
Joël, you have any comment about this?

Joel (0:29:38):

No, maybe you should take the question too.

Sraddhalu (0:29:45):

So then we move to the next question, which is, what would you offer as advice to young people who are already into use of drugs, alcohol, smoking, and I am putting them all together generally now. What steps can they take to get free, if they want to get free? And really we have discussed how the binding takes place through these kinds of group settings. What can you do?

Joel (0:30:00):
So to continue about what you were saying, you and Alina, it's pretty obvious is that your drug addiction or drug use is connected to a specific group. Disconnecting with that group is essential, which means not seeing them, but also erasing from your mobile, the phone number of the people who provide the drugs and trying to find somebody who can help also. I mean, I'm thinking like your family doctor might not be the correct person, but a doctor who knows a little bit how withdrawal symptoms and things like that can be handled, could be useful. But based on my own experience, I would like to say also that if people are already a bit advanced in their drug use or alcohol use, it's quite common to have several attempts at quitting, and then falling back, and then quitting again and then falling back and people should not get discouraged. It's not abnormal to try several times, the thing can be sticky. But perseverance and it works.

Sraddhalu (0:31:11):
So, important point from a yogic perspective, I am looking at the whole situation again from outside. Here was a strong pull which bound you into one of these things- drugs, alcohol, smoking. A strong pull of a group energy, sometimes behind that group energy there are other forces, but something which you associated with - fun, happiness, good time, sense of freedom perhaps even, but which then bound you into it. So that when you are alone now, two things happen. Either you feel extremely lonely, so you crave some company, or that pull draws you. You suddenly feel the urge, I need to go to that party, I need to call up that person, I need to connect, plug in, feel one with the group of friends. So there's a group energy which is actively reaching out to pull you. And this is something important to understand. It's not happening just like that. It's not a mere habit of your past association. There's an active energy reaching out to bring you back under its hold. Now, this can get a bit messy depending on the kind of group involved. So, just to give you another perspective and widen this scope, notice how most of these spaces where the high drug use party takes place are underground or shaped like a cavern underground or dimly lit using sometimes infrared light or ultraviolet light or extremes of the red or violet extremes not white light, okay? And often they are low in fresh air. There's a lot of smoke or other things but they're low in fresh air. So even if you take an underground site, the fresh air may be on top but the stalest air is at the bottom where the people are dancing. So it also puts you in a state of mild hypoxia where the oxygenation of the brain is less so it allows again the dulling of your discriminative powers but all of this - you see the image the mood is all underground below normal subconscious or tending towards the lower vital or subconscious and it's not by chance, it's by design. Because the nature of the energy of that space is precisely that and it wants to pull you. When you've been there a few times, you've kind of built up a link, that energy is reaching out to you. Some of these spaces are also, I'm going to use a word wrongly, sanctified, but in a negative way. Just as when you go to a place of prayer or a spiritual space, there was an attempt to invoke a higher presence or consciousness to sanctify the space. So too in such spaces, very often there is an attempt to invoke those energies which correspond to the lower vital ranges. Sometimes they will have images which represent those, sometimes they will have gargoyle type statues or inversions of positive spiritual or religious images precisely to provoke the negative energy to be invoked there, evoked and invoked. And so there is a invocation of a negative or a lower vital energy, not always obviously negative, in that space which then rules it. It then feeds on the energies of those who are participating in that party or that state of intoxication. It feeds on them, in return it gives them its high. So it titillates, provokes, excites some of your senses and especially of the baser parts of your consciousness which are its rule, its domain, its kingdom. And in return it feeds on your energy. So there's a kind of an exchange of energy taking place which allows it then to increase its influence in you and for you to be bound into its influence again. So there's this rotation that's taking place. It's very important to recognize this. A lot of people who struggle to get free don't realise that it's not their failure. They come out with this very strong clear will, I want to get free, I have had enough, I'm sick of it, I don't want that life anymore and they feel free for a while and then it's as if a hook or visually one would see it as like a tentacles of an octopus. The hook comes, latches onto you and pulls you back. And suddenly the urge is felt, suddenly the strong craving is felt, suddenly the loneliness or whatever form it takes. And you feel compelled. Your individual ability to stand separate has been compromised by this overwhelming energy that pulls you.

It's important to recognize you did not fail. A lot of people get into guilt trips. I tried, I failed, I tried, I failed, no, there's no point trying anymore. You stick to your clarity. Recognize that the failure was not yours. It was a more strong energy that compelled you. And if you really want to get free, then you have to be able to cut off that link. So one of the most obvious forms of it is what Joël described, remove those names from your phone list, especially the drug dealers. Behind that there's often, it's like an octopus tentacled. I don't like to use the word octopus, because octopus is a very sweet creature, but it is octopus-like in its tentacles and then it bifurcates through individuals. So it hooks into the drug dealer through whom again the energy goes out or a space to which it is attached and you need to cut the link. First material links, phone numbers, communications, contact with those friends, find new friends. And then second, the psychological links and that's not always easy. If you are conscious enough you may feel how the energy comes, you may feel the urge latching into you and pulling you. If you are not conscious enough, you don't realise until it's too late. You find yourself compelled. I'll even describe an experience which some of you may have seen. The person wants to go, let's say he's in his house. The urge is felt, he is resisting. I need to go to the little shop around the corner to buy my groceries. Now it's as if it sneaks in, in a form that justifies his intention. He steps out of the house. Till now there was the barrier of the door closed. He steps out of the house with the money in his pocket and turns towards the grocery store. And then depending on how strong the pull is, halfway through he turns around and goes to his party place or the drug dealer or he will buy his groceries and then from there go straight to the party place. You see how insidious that influence is. It uses the cover of something which is genuine or self-justified and then warps and uses. So recognize it's not just your will that fails. It is a bigger will to which your will is not strong enough to resist. What's the way out? You don't have what it takes. You are not strong enough. You don't have the strong enough occult protection. Seek something which is stronger than you. It's a very important point. Just as there is that negative or lower vital influence that wants to assist you, that wants to nourish you and protect you. You need to turn to that as your succour, not relying on your personal strength alone, not relying on your personal will alone, which is not strong enough. Rely on a greater power, a greater will, a greater protection. That being greater than this other, it will always win. Although initially you may waver. You may waver in your ability to open to that.

Sraddhalu (0:39:45):

So, here comes the difference. In the access to the lower vital energy, it gripped you. And perhaps you also opened yourself to it. See what often happens during these parties. To enjoy the party, you let yourself go. To what? To the music, to the mood, to the space, to the group energy. In order to dance with the music, you allow the music to seize you and drive you. And so you see people who are dancing, they go like that. There's no logic, there's no beauty, there's no aesthetics, there's no conscious volition. It is just your body swinging and generally you'll find in the body the lower part swinging, generally in the belly, hips and it's all very symbolic because that's the range of consciousness which is being first latched on to, that's where the elastic is pulling, pushing, so the swinging starts there and then it swings to the higher layers. I've seen people who have been heavily into drug use earlier and maybe they've got out of it now, in a Spiritual space, in a musical concert, classical, elevating, aesthetic, whatever, or in bhajans, kirtans, and they're sitting there on their chair and as the kirtan moves or rises or builds, and it's a higher vital but it's not necessarily just spiritual, there's also a higher vital component of some excitation. You find suddenly these people starting to swing. Interestingly, the first point of swing is the hips. And then after that, you can see the shoulders follow the hips swinging. But of course, they're sitting, so the hips can't move. But energetically, it starts there and then rises. If you observe carefully, you'll notice, yes, this is a habit that came from the earlier phase of the party dancing, drug use dancing. But that habit now has come here. So the moment there is an excitation of some kind, even if it's a higher vital excitation, it's the same pattern that moves first and from there arises.

So all of this is to give you the, let's say, the behind the scenes of what really happens in the struggle. So recognizing you are not strong enough, ask a higher help. Unlike this power which seizes you actively and to which you have consciously opened, the turn to the higher help has not been done as consciously, has not been done as thoroughly, has not been done in those parts. So generally what happens, your higher parts are seeking that, your lower parts where you would have been swinging normally are seeking the other. So you feel yourself torn, you feel yourself split. In fact, the common experience is that in your, when you are in your higher state, you say, oh why am I in this? I wish I could be free of this whatever difficulty or what you feel uncomfortable about. And then the other part seizes you, swings you and there's a strong guilt and then you give in. What happens then is in switching between these two parts, the guilt begins to split and tear you and that's one of the reasons in our earlier discussion also on issues with sex and suppression of certain desires, I had highlighted this one thing, get rid of the guilt. Because the guilt eats you up, it does not help you, it prevents you from being able to move forward and that's why understanding this whole thing is so important. You see, one of my objectives in going so deep into this discussion is that I hope that young people or even older people who are facing these difficulties will get the necessary insight and perhaps tools with which to not only make conscious, deliberate choices but also to be able to get free if they so choose. And understanding this is very important. It's not your failure. Do not feel guilty. Recognize every effort you made was extremely valuable and it was yours. Every failure that you experienced that you couldn't give in, you caved to that pressure, was not your failure, it was rather the compulsion of an external energy more powerful than yours.

Sraddhalu (0:44:07):

So the solution now, with the same energy that you gave yourself to the music, that you gave yourself to the collective mood of the party, or the drugs, or whatever the high was off. And I will come back to this later because there are other kinds of highs. Whatever the high to which you submitted in your lower parts or eventually even in your higher parts, give yourself with at least as much enthusiasm and totality and dedication to something higher. Higher than you, greater than you, more powerful, more true, spiritual, of course the easiest for us is the Divine Mother. There is no greater power,  the Divine Mother Creatrix of the universe who also as a mother we can go to with shame with guilt anything you feel and say, here I am, Mother this is how it is helping, and like a baby, bare, naked before her, you say here, help me, take me. With the same dedication and commitment you give yourself. Unlike that power, she will not compel, but when you give yourself, she will embrace. She will fill you with her light, with her clarity, with her love, with her strength, and she will shape you from inside. And it will still take time perhaps. You may still go through a few cycles of struggling, failing, struggling, failing, but each time remembering her. Even when you feel you are about to give in, remember her and say, Mother, here I am, I am unable to hold back, help me, protect me. If that turning to her is sincere, you will find immediately the weakening of the other impulse. Because the nature of the lower vital impulse is, remember the setting, it needs darkness. It needs ultraviolet, infrared, it cannot stand the white light. There is a very interesting observation Sri Aurobindo makes, that you will see a lot of these mediumistic experiments and materializations and all that, they take place in a setting with red light because he says those lower vital beings cannot withstand white light, the white of the Divine Mother. They can't stand it because when touched by the white light they dissolve. So the moment you have this lower vital pull, if you open and call the Mother's light, instantly that tentacle lets go, dissolves or breaks. Of course it may come back later when you're vulnerable, but that's the whole point. Now you have to be more persistent in this help. Now there's a very interesting angle to this, how you can put it into practice materially. And I believe the person who formulated this particular method was inspired, divinely inspired, and I am referring here to the Alcoholics Anonymous program for the de-addiction of alcoholism. But if you look at it, it's a 12-step program. I find the number also very significant. Its primary basis first is stop deceiving yourself, because as long as you hide from yourself, you can't open to the mother also. So first accept, yes, I'm an alcoholic. And until you're able to do that, you cannot really make a change. So that's like the first step but what it relies upon it says I don't have the strength and you say it I don't have the strength, I need help and you rely on a greater help ask for help and I don't know what. I had seen the text long ago. I don't think I even read all 12 but the idea of a conscious surrender to higher spiritual power and calling for its help as the basis of the whole method is really a spiritual program. It's a 12-step program, but it's essentially a spiritual program. I believe he was a Christian, I don't know, I didn't check his background, but it came from, inspired from a divine source in the way the program is formulated. One need not follow exactly those 12 steps, but if you understand the psycho-spiritual basis for it, well, you have your way. So, all this was in some detail to explain the nature of the struggle, but also the way out. A greater power than that, a greater power than yours, to which you open the way you opened to this one. So, it's not such a big deal. If you could open to this, you can open to that also, if you want.

Joel (0:48:55):
Shall I read the Serenity Prayer of the Alcoholic Anonymous?

[Sraddhalu] Yes, sure.

Okay. ‘God give us grace to accept with serenity the things that cannot be changed, courage to change the things which should be changed, and the wisdom to distinguish the one from the other. Living one day at a time, enjoying one moment at a time, accepting hardship as a pathway to peace, taking as Jesus did, the sinful world as it is, not as I would have it, trusting that you will make all things right if I surrender to your will so that I may be reasonably happy in this life and supremely happy with you forever in the next. Amen’.

Sraddhalu (0:49:40):
So an interesting component here is living one step at a time. That you don't think of the battle tomorrow. Right now, what do you choose? Cling to that. And each small step you make conscious small choices and that's how you also build your willpower and reorganise your whole personality. So there are a lot of very profound yogic hints in that whole formulation. So I want to take this discussion of having understood more deeply the nature of the struggle to get free. Friends can help us, parents can help us. So, looking at it from outside, what would you advise parents and friends who want to protect their children or friends from exposure to these pressures? And I'm turning this question again to Joël and Alina. Shall I start?

Alina (0:50:43):
Joël?

Joel (0:50:44):
Yeah, okay.

Alina (0:50:45):
Yes, please.

Joel (0:50:46):
So, what would we advise parents who want to protect their children? Me, first thing for sure is to keep the dialogue open. Don't get closed if your children are doing something, or your teenager are doing something that you don't want. Keep the open dialogue open and discuss with them. And if they go to a party, why don't you drive them and go fetch them? Give them money for the taxi to come back, I mean, take care of the situation. Then another point I think very important. It's also the point of coherence. I mean, if daddy is drinking and mommy is taking sleeping pills or pills against anxiety, and then they shout at their kids because it's smoking marijuana, I mean, kids are not stupid. They see also that daddy and mommy are also in some kind of addiction or taking some substance. So it's good also to look at oneself, when we have expectation for teenager and see, are we happy? Are we good models? And if not, to take care of that aspect also. That was the point I felt like sharing.

Alina (0:51:53):
And as a completion, I would say if as parents or if you're a facilitator helping someone to stop their addiction, whatever addiction, because I mean we didn't cover the whole subject of addictions, but sometimes I find myself scrolling Instagram for more than half an hour, and I consider that also being an addiction. Some other people are spending three hours scrolling news feeds and Facebook or other social media or yeah. So addiction could be anything that in the end it's harmful to you and it's hard for you to give up and I don't know if we will maybe discuss in future gambling and games or any types of addictions but I think that behind all addictions, we should look at what is our feelings that are being satisfied using that drug, or as I said, it can be anything, or what is the need that is satisfied. So we have to closer to our feelings and our needs as we talked before, for example, just the need of being in a social environment to get attention, to get love or affection from or social validation from others. So maybe as a family again I would encourage to look very closely at their kids' behaviour and see what's their inner needs that are not being satisfied. And really ask that question. What is your feelings that are satisfied when you use this? How do you feel about smoking? What does it fulfil you? What is the need that is being fulfilled. And as Joël said, if we cannot be an example, and if we are taking drugs and alcohol and kids are growing in that environment, then it's definitely a very high chance they will turn into those escaping addictions. So yes, exposing kids to higher, finer vibrations, encourage them to practise self-awareness disciplines, and that it can be anything. The moment when you start to be self-aware, then you start to create a connection with your inner being, and then you will be able to overcome may be one of these addictions.

Sraddhalu (0:54:52):
Thank you. Very interesting. Many important points have been raised in this advice and don't know if I can touch on all of them to elaborate also. Two things which just stand out immediately. One is you as parent or friend are the link. Where that person is not able to open to the Divine help directly. If they are open to you, through you that link can form. Do not let go of that link, whatever happens. And the link has to be one where the addicted person should feel free to be themselves and not need to hide or deceive. That means you have been accepting, you have to be accepting of anything and everything. The person can say the most horrible thing that they might have done or not and you'll still be there. So it has to be unconditional. I won't even say unconditional love if you can, that's already a great achievement spiritually but unconditional acceptance at least and they should feel it. It should be genuine to this sense. So you have to be the link, you have to be there for them if you want to be able to help, come what may. And it's not something you can start doing now that your child has an addiction issue. It has to be the culture from the beginning. That as you raise your children, they should know that they can speak with you about anything and even if you don't approve of it, you will still be accepting of them. Not of the thing they've done, but of them. And that will never be compromised. That should be the nature of the relationship. Okay, sometimes it's too late. We didn't build it like that. Now what can we do? Well, it takes time, but you have to start. In that case, you are able to engage them in conversation.

So, I had a few experiences regarding this. I was once visiting some friends. There, one of their children had got into exposure to alcohol at a very young age. They didn't know. But I was in their house. For some reason, I was just led to go to a particular place, open something, and there was the bottle. And I knew he had hidden it from his parents. There was no way to directly say it because immediately it would just start a cycle of guilt. So instead I had an occasion to chat with him. I spoke in some detail about the kinds of pressures that he will come under in the circumstances of the school and society today. What to do about it, how to manage it, how to reverse the pressure and I said even, you know, you can fall, if they form a group that's giving you peer pressure, you can form a group that gives back a peer pressure saying, we choose not to have alcohol and you're proud of it, Right? Just as they are proud of breaking rules, because just because they broke the rule, it has no other value. You are proud of living by your values and your standards and you form your own group. So it's a group setting which supports you. So we had some discussion like that but the only way to do that was to for me to open the subject and start speaking of but it had to come from an understanding which he did not already have. Not from a preaching, not from a moral situation. Oh you must not give in to pressure. No that's not going to work. Why? Simple question, why not? So you have to have a broader framework.

Alina (0:58:27):
So we should not forbid and come with this pressure on you have not to touch this or that or because then kids are always interested in doing the forbidden things and we have to understand that, that aspect and another side of just mentioning alcohol and smoking. For example, because I was studying in acupuncture, these five elements, smoking and both alcohol means fire. So it means the joy, the love that I bring inside me. So through smoking, through alcohol, it has this component of the element fire, which we bring from outside inside, which means a deep lack of inner love and security. So we should work upon these feelings and try to discuss with kids or in our process of facilitating the person who has these problems.

Sraddhalu (0:59:31):
Yes, so that was the other important point which was also brought up that you need to seek succour of any of these means because you have a lack, something missing. And if that was already provided at home, you would not feel that lack elsewhere. And I've seen children who are healthy enough that you cannot give them anything which they don't already have. But if they're missing it, and unfortunately today, it's very easy to feel a lack at home because both parents are working. If there's a grandparent, that already fills in. If someone is there, you can talk to and feel love from. Otherwise you come home, either your parents are not there or they come home so tired, they don't have time to interact with you. Well, who do you turn to? Only your friends or television. And neither of these can give you what they could have otherwise given. So it's part of a larger societal problem of decline and not being present. But the idea is if there was that already at home, you would not feel the need. But I have a problem also with this question, you don't tell them not to take. If you don't tell them not to take, then of course you're saying, yeah it's okay. And some parents do that. They will tell their children, it's all right, you can have a cup of alcohol. See, I'm having it also, there's nothing wrong, but stay within limits. They will say it like that and I don't think that's the right thing either. The right thing would be an education along these lines where you explain what happens, why it is harmful, how it clouds your mind and your judgement and removes your ability to make a conscious choice. Your free will is compromised. This needs to be explained and therefore the advice given is do not go even for the first one. No first puff, no first drink, no first high. Just avoid it. You need to see this at some point, at least when they're young.

Alina (1:01:24):
But we need to make sure they get this decision. So, the way how we expose it, they should have the glimpse of oh, this is not going to be for me. I decide not to take that thing so it's not the pressure from my family forbidding me.

Sraddhalu (1:01:43):
Yes, So it's not like a moral pressure hammering on you, you will not, you will disappoint me if you do. Often it takes on a kind of a moral and emotional manipulation - You are bringing down the family's name or I am disappointed that you could do this. It's nothing to do with a personal thing and if they have had, you just say, all right, what do you do next? And move on from there. My principle with dealing with children, especially when they have done wrong things, many of them need to break a rule in order to realise that they want what their choice is. Many are  like that. They are rebellious by nature. Very few will learn by observing other people's mistakes. The bulk of them, two-thirds at least, needed to make a mistake in order to realise why it's harming. So simply recognize, oh yes, what do we do next? And just move on. No judgmental comments. And introspection to something deeper. What does it make you feel that you were feeling or missing, be there for them as the link for the support. This I think is the single most important. Brings us then to what is the support you provide at home that is superior, to which the drug high can never meet. Is there a higher high that you can offer? And so this brings me to the next question. What is the difference between a high that you get from drugs, alcohol or smoking or other games and the lift that you take, that you experience or the change that you experience through, let's say a spiritual experience or a meditation or a concentration or prayer, whatever form it may take. Because very often people say this is a high and that is a high, but no there is a big difference. Can you comment on this?

Alina (1:03:46):
Joël, do you want to start?

[Joel] No, you can go.

Alina:Yeah, so probably from taking drugs and getting a high on drugs would always come with a package of side effects and probably a clouded mind or foggy mind, losing the sense of clarity that would be certainly. And I know maybe it's a momentary relief from emotional pain, we already mentioned all of this. Maybe it's an opening, but not vertically - vertically, as it would be a meditation but it's more horizontally feeling the unity and the union with all the people around with nature with the whole world. in a spiritual, oh this was so deep, so intense, so spiritually, because of these boundaries that were dissolved, as we said. But when we meditate, there's a definitely different grade of high that we can reach naturally, free of charge, and it's almost like you feel being touched by the Divine Grace from above, being uplifted from your, let's say, your boundaries and limitations and being lifted into a wideness of peace. And we might feel a descent of love into our whole being and that cannot compare with the status of taking some just heavy drugs, alcohol or other opioids. I think maybe people think that, oh that's an effort to be made, it seemed like we were building muscles, no? We have to put some effort initially to get to that state of mind where we are being able to have a clarity and being centred in our being, which the drugs would not give you that. You would not be, you will not feel so centred and so connected within yourself as by having a spiritual practice or a self-awareness discipline that you are taking for your own? Joël, would you like to comment?

Joel (1:06:44):
Yeah, I could maybe give my difference between a drug high and something that comes from spiritual practice, I would say that the drug high will just be a satisfaction of the senses, something very superficial, while whether it is a spiritual experience or a daily meditation, because spiritual experiences are not always the routine, the meditation is the routine, is a sense of a much deeper satisfaction, an existential satisfaction. And that's a big difference. You see, you feel, I feel much more fulfilled after meditation because it deeply connects me to something totally essential. And that's the true nourishment probably I was looking for through other means before.

Sraddhalu (1:07:32):
Beautiful. I would like to use an analogy. You see, as little children, we found it great fun when somebody tickled us on the side. Isn't it? We've all felt that. We've all laughed. And perhaps you've done that to little children. You poke them. It tickles fun. But would you like to remain tickled all your life? Superficial. The difference of a deep friendship, of trust, of love, of deep intimacy is far more satisfying than being tickled on the surface or having your skin scratched. And the difference would be similar. To use already the phrasing you have both used, the superficiality where the experience is felt, and opening horizontally even you feel closer to your friends but in an emotional friendship or emotional energetic exchange but not on an essential experience. In the spiritual experience or even in the meditation concentration you're more centred, you are more you. You don't lose yourself in the breaking of boundaries. You are more deeply centred, more truly you, and therefore when you relate to your friends, you can relate as truly you, in a relationship that is true and lasting and real. So in every way, the lasting value, the depth, the completeness and the lasting satisfaction is far superior in the spiritual experience and of course in the high of an opening to higher state of consciousness what you receive in a sense is yours and there is no low there is no negative to it unlike the drug high which is always followed by a drug low. In fact, this is something which is never spoken about in the cinema, in the media, in the literature which is there to provoke or invite children to experiment, they never tell you the price of the low. So this is something now I would like to raise also just as an experience. What is this low that follows the drug high? How long does it last and is it worth the value of the high? Compared to of course what we have discussed in the spiritual experience or in the meditation, the high or the deep sense of satisfaction or centering that takes place, there is no negation to it it either continues or it fades but it never is followed by a negation of it.

Joel (1:10:17):
Okay yes, let's speak about the low, so that's really one of the most tricky part of drug usage is that low are not present usually straight away in the process. You take drugs one, two, three times and it's more or less okay. You wake up the next day, little hangover or little low, but it's not so dramatic. The problem is that very quickly what will happen is that you will need to increase the to get more or less the same effect, but the low will be longer and worse. Up to a point where you can take a lot of substance for very little effect and then days of very lows and those lows are mood swings, depression, anxiety, body pain, and actually probably long lasting damage to the body and the brain. So it's true, it's not spoken much about it. I would say for having friends who have been also quite heavy drug users like me at one moment, some are in a very damaged health situation these days. So with body which are not functioning well at all. I guess I'm lucky, but usually people who use drugs for a while need to increase the quantity and then being very sick, especially psychologically, but also physically. So that's a long lasting low.

Alina (1:11:49):
Especially if it becomes a true, truly an addiction, because not necessarily you become addicted to the substance that you're taking or that thing. Yes or no depends on each person individually. Some people might experience some very highly addictive drugs like heroin and take it for one day and that doesn't mean that they will become addicted afterwards. And some people might experience for the first time alcohol and become addicted.  It doesn't make such a high difference on the type. It's more on the personality, on your, it's more about how, on, it's individually, I think it's really individually. And yeah, probably the low after taking drugs, it's at least as long as you were high, minimum you would need to spend same amount of hours to recover. Or let's say the phase in which you were on high, you would need maybe the  same phase or maybe even double. But I honestly seen a lot of people after drugs who are not well even after one, two, three days or one week or depends, some of them may experience some panic attacks or some health problems as Joel said. And then definitely that might cost you with your health, with your life. So, yeah, I don't know if that was a good answer, Sraddhalu.

Joel (1:13:47):
One more thing I would like to say about the long term health effect. When I was working in high reduction field among drug users, in Belgium, where I was working, the number of deaths by tobacco or smoking in general cannabis were 40,000 Belgian citizens per year. For alcohol, it was 10,000. And for all the other drugs, it's what, 250. So you see those drugs who seems to be socially very much accepted, the death toll is gigantic on society.

Alina (1:14:29):
Yeah. That's very true. Same in my country where I'm coming from, Romania. I think there's more half of the population who are smoking and drinking and that's really harmful same like drugs and it's not forbidden and we don't understand, okay, what could be more harmful, maybe in long term, honestly, in long term use, I think personally that alcohol and smoking can have worse health consequences than just taking drugs one time in your life or for an experience. So we have to make sure that we are clear with what it means in long term as Joel said.

Sraddhalu (1:15:16):
Yes, it's fascinating when you compare it and I can link it to the benefit of meditation where the lift in shift of consciousness which actually takes you to a higher state of consciousness may stay for a while and then sometimes gradually subside. But it is never followed by a low. It is only positive, there is no negation. Whereas the drugs always followed by a low and as Alina said, it's either at least as long or sometimes double and increasingly as Joël pointed out, the high is less and less because you need more and more drug to get to the same level which you can't access anymore at that point and just to stay on the same spot you need to take much more but the low becomes longer and worse. Now I want to comment on this because we have to understand the true nature of what is happening. This applies to drugs, it applies to smoking, alcohol and even to some extent with giving. So let's say, I'll take the example of a smoker. When taking the cigarette, smoke first, of course the first reaction of the body is to cough and to feel suffocated. After that, once you've crossed the natural discrimination of the body, the addictive element hooks in and now it begins to suppress, but also it begins to creep. And you must understand it's an energy of the tobacco plant, of the tobacco being behind the plant, which has now got to hook into you and now pulls you or feeds on you to some extent. But what it did, it gave you a high of an excitation in which your heart rate went up. Certain hormones, chemicals are released in your bloodstream. Certain operations of your brain suddenly lose boundary and it's as if large parts of your brain begin to be activated. So it's as if your perception of the universe somehow becomes as if amplified momentarily. Again with variations of alcohol, drugs, there are variations to that. But basically this is what happens momentarily. And then it begins to close down. As it begins to close down, the exhaustion from that excitation now leads to a lapse below normal. For rest, for recuperation. It's an excitation followed by an exhaustion. But the nature of the excitation was not in the range of normal human capacity. It broke boundaries of normalcy. It pushed limits of your nervous system, of your brain, of your hormones and of other chemicals. As a result, it broke boundaries. As a result, the recuperation involves repair and rebuilding. Some of it, perhaps not entirely. What happens next though is, in the physical consciousness now, automatically there has been a dulling. So the next time the dullness ensures you never hit the same peak, but the damage is still the same. And so the low becomes a little worse. The recuperation and rest needed is a little worse. Remember, it's always in contrast to an excitation and the damage that comes with over-excitation.

So something like this happens when you are for example doing some bodybuilding exercises. You may take weights and pump. If you keep pumping what happens at the level of the fine fibres of your muscles, some of the muscle fibres get torn and then the body rebuilds. But when it rebuilds, it rebuilds stronger because that whole process is part of nature's organised working. That nature uses this as a way of rebuilding and strengthening the body to make it stronger. Unlike what happens with the high caused by chemicals which breaks nature's normal operation and therefore the recuperation from that does not lead to more health but worse health. What happens very quickly now? Your high has become lower and lower until it settles to something which is close to normal. Now this is the part people don't understand, those who are into it. What you're claiming as a high now is very close to normal in contrast to the low which you have which is much longer the high feels high but it's actually normal which is feeling high, in comparison to the low. So somebody who's smoking post smoking excitation, the rest or recuperation period drops lower and lower until the state of smoking excitation feels like a high compared to that low but to somebody who's not smoking that state of excitation is slightly very close to or slightly higher than our normal state of being. In other words, the addicted smoker is using smoking to rise to a level of normalcy which you had before you started smoking, which now you need to gain because you're living your life on a low. This is the point they don't understand. When they say they get a high, they feel relaxed, they feel free, they feel destressed. That's the state of freedom and distress that you have when you don't smoke. To which they're coming back from the stress caused by the low, to which they need a high to get to normal. And this is what happens with all addictions, all forms of addictions.

Sraddhalu (1:20:53):

So the nature of the addiction is declining benefits and struggle to stay in normalcy using the same tools which initially gave you an excitation. Contrasting this again with the nature of a spiritual effort which shifts consciousness, changes you fundamentally, has a deep lasting impact that strengthens your true individuality and your sense of freedom and identity, but which lasts, grows, builds with never alone. They are fundamentally different experiences. In the increasing growth of the spirit, there is no excitation. Rather, there is a foundation of peace, stability and a deep joy, causeless, which is not an excitation, which does not have a negation. You see, the nature of the spiritual joy, delight, eventually even the bliss is that it is not formed of dualities and it is towards that which you grow. And like this which is excitation followed by loss and then increasing losses only. So the other point which here you need to recognize, why did you need that excitation to begin with? And this is the point which Alina made earlier about something that you were lacking that you wanted to fill and it could be something very simple as like companionship, you're lonely or you're bored and you seek companionship, you can't - you're unable to relate in a healthy way because of certain issues in your emotional development or in the development of your personality, what these chemical highs would do is to break those boundaries and momentarily make you feel connected with a group and then suddenly the sense of loneliness went away and then when it passed, you fell into an even greater sense of loneliness and insufficiency, the sense of the whole or the lack only grows with the low.

And here comes an important point. If there is something deeper within you, that can use that occasion when you're exhausted to pop out and say but there must be something more to life. If you can catch that and if you can start looking for what that something more might be, it could be your way out also and this is often the experience that some people would have when they experience the low but when the excitation is there, it covers up this deeper feeling because excitation in its nature is a superficial agitation so the deeper psychic influence never gets a chance to emerge but during the low, it might get a chance to emerge but often that may be overwhelmed by the low and sometimes even helplessness or even suicidal thoughts which may come from the energies of the beings to which you are now exposed. So what you have seen here in this individual is a struggle between forces. The energies that come through the drugs and I want to briefly touch upon this. The difference between designer drugs and mushrooms or other natural plant-derived psychotropic psychedelics. Designer drugs are manufactured in the laboratory. These are derived from plants, but initially they were plant molecules that are being modified and made more and more complex or very specific specific results. But behind it, if you look at the plant derived mushroom base, let's say, there's a being which presides over that species of plant. And it can be seen as a being, it can be addressed, you can have a conversation with it, it can even give you information. But what's the level, the level of the plant consciousness which is vital and typically for the smaller plants lower vital. But there's a being and it can even come to you. So the shamanic tradition gives great value to use of such means in order to enter those worlds of the lower vital and interact with these beings. Since the goal of the shamanic interaction is not a spiritual awakening, although they may use the word spirit, they use spirit in the lower sense of spirits as beings of nature or of the forests or of natural processes with which they want to interact in order to gain certain participation or make a pact. So you ask the rain beings, please give us rain when we ask you or some other beings to do what you want. So for that purpose, those psychotropic substances or plant-based things are very useful and specific plant based substances may access specific domains or realms of the lower vital. Whereas the designer drugs are not so clearly formed as individual beings, they often just directly break into the brain processes and simply break open barriers and open you to whatever is available. So the nature of their highs is also very different. Plant-based highs are often much milder and more directed or they can be more easily directed. This is just some general observations I'm making seeing things from outside but what you have to recognize is at the end of the day, all of these are influences wanting to own you or manifest through you. Meanwhile the true you, the psychic being within you also wants to manifest in this mind-life body. So, you have a struggle. If that psychic presence is sufficiently individualised, first if. Second if, if it is awake enough. Third if, if it can put forward a sufficiently clear nudge on the surface personality, then it may be able to nudge, push, direct in spite of these external clouding influences. So we'll come to a very key idea here. Unless you consciously make effort to turn inward and open to that influence, its access to you is much limited. And bulk of our education is forcing us only to turn outward and grab excitation outside. So I want to close with one last question to both of you. Looking back, are you conscious of how the psychic guidance led you while through that, let's say, confusing phase of growth? Or generally how it has guided your life navigating between such conflicting influences which we're trying to seize on you. Anything you would like to share?

Alina (1:27:45):
I think you already mentioned and you articulated, Sraddhalu, so beautifully saying about this psychic influence that can take place under some suffering moments. For example, even if you are after a down from drugs, or maybe when you're in suffering, in pain, or real health problems, when you get to that point where you become extra sensitive, that's why I said before that it can happen even after the low of drugs, some people might use it as a turn within. And it happened to me very often actually during my life experiences, that when I was very down or maybe a little bit depressed or something bad happened out of which I didn't know how to manage to get out. Actually, that was an opportunity for my psyche to come in front to manifest and to guide me and keep me on a good track and making better choices, trying to become better, becoming aware of certain things which I couldn't, but in those moments it made a whole difference. And although even nowadays, I'm still facing some problems of linking my inner being and my inner world with the outer world. And maybe some people know me for who I am just outwardly, because that's what I may be exposed more. I'm trying and I know that with the support from above, I can do this link and let my soul or give free will to my soul to govern my whole life. Thank you.

Sraddhalu (1:29:47):
Anything you would like to share, Joël?

Joel (1:29:48):
Yeah, well, me, it's a bit the opposite somehow. It's like the psychic had very early on put a question in front of me from the age of 15, which is, what is the meaning of my life? And after, what, 15 years of searching an answer and not finding any in Europe, then I kind of lost a bit of time in drugs and party and stuff. But, funnily enough, I remember that at one moment where I was doing quite a few stupid things, some of my friends were a bit worried for me. But then I came out and I had one friend who had a spiritual opening and she told me, after I'd done that journey and reconnected, I openly connected to spirituality, she told me, oh I was never worried for you. It was very obvious that what's happening to you was totally under control. And so I smiled and she smiled and I found that quite funny that she had spot that somehow, everything was under control. So yes, obviously something has been guiding from behind the scene.

Sraddhalu (1:31:07):
That's it. Would you want to share that incident which you mentioned earlier, when you heard the voice.

Joel (1:31:13):
Okay, so there's two incidents I can share. That came from something which was not my surface consciousness, obviously. So at one moment, since my dad had died from cancer very young, and I was very upset about that, and for me, there was no meaning of life, and he was going back to the void, and I say, if it's like that, then I'll just party and enjoy and take drugs as much as I want. So after a while, because I had this mindset, taking drugs every day, I had a shock one day, waking up and realising, oh, but I am a drug addict. Now I can't live without drugs. And at the moment, my mind stipulated, I am a drug addict. I had from within my heart a yes which came, and a smiling yes, and it wasn't me. I mean, I guess now I could say it was a deeper me. And I was very surprised, there was this doubt. It's supposed to be an horrifying moment of awareness, and at the same time there's something joyful to come from within. Then, a second experience, that was after, just after I stopped everything, after putting quite some effort, I had an experience. I didn't know what was Spiritual experience at that time. I was not open to spirituality yet. But I had the feeling that, that experience and the destructive aspect of that experience got translated in something that was almost a spiritual experience. I had the feeling to be a little ball of light falling into the darkness, like falling into an ocean of darkness which was without end. And the more I was going down, the more the pressure of the darkness was trying to crush that little ball of light. That was me. And the pressure was increasing, increasing, increasing. And then I realised that the substance of this ball of light was like a liquid. So as much pressure as you can put from the darkness, it will never crush that ball of light. And then somehow I came out of that experience and I said, okay, so there's nothing to be destroyed. I can just go up now. There's no point going further down. It won't get crushed. And I just feel like sharing that.

Alina (1:33:25):
That's a beautiful experience you had, Joel. Nice to share with us. And today we reversed a bit, the process. So instead of us asking questions to Sraddhalu, he asked us a few questions and I hope it could give a support for family and or young adults if they were interested in this subject. And I'm not sure we covered the whole plane of addictions, but if there's other questions from our viewers, we welcome them to send us on our email integralstudies.in[at] gmail.com. And we really thank you, Sraddhalu, for creating such a spiritual background for supporting people who want to give up drugs or who want to turn their outer mundane life into a spiritual way. And I hope it was of good help.

Sraddhalu (1:34:43):
I would like to make some closing observations then to close the topic itself, because we have overshot our time. But it was important to complete this phase of the discussion. There are still many more questions which are all important. We will take them up next time also in continuation of this and associated with these other topics also, which are part of this general sequence of the subject. First of all, I want to thank both of you, both Joel and Alina, you have really shared your experience in a very candid and free way and I'm really grateful for that because it's not easy to find people who have been through all those experiences and who can articulate with clarity the struggles as well as the relationship with their spiritual life. And that you chose to be so candid I think will be of great help to all those who will be watching this now and of course in future. And I hope this will be of help for people to become conscious of what's happening actually and to be able to make deliberate choices both of what they want to do with their life and also how they want, if they want to come out of an addiction which they might have come into. But the important thing and this is the point on which we will repeat and highlight: There is the help which is far greater, far more powerful than whatever addiction or difficulty or entrapment of addiction one may be in. And the second thing is the one who is truly you, that is the psychic being within. If it is reasonably developed, conscious and awake, able to act even a little bit reasonably and I would assume that is the case for all those of you who are watching this because otherwise we would not be interested in such things, in such discussions even. So if that is even a reasonably awake, then it will always give you an indication. It is the one thing within you which is like a compass, like a compass you've seen, always pointing to true north. Whatever may happen in circumstances, whatever may be the doubts in your mind or even brilliant logic to justify something which may sound logically completely true and right, is it so though, the compass within you will show. Whatever may be the overwhelming rush of energies, emotions, a collective lift of flow of energy and compulsions of all kinds, which may override your personal will positively or negatively, that inside you will be the compass which will always show what is true. Whatever may be within you a conflict between different parts, pulling, pushing in different directions and you don't know which is higher, which is more true because they each has, seem to have something which is justified. The compass within you, the subtle soft intimation of the psychic being will always be there and always right and true.

In order to be able to feel it and to hear it or to follow it, there's one requirement though, that you become very, very, very quiet. Because unlike excitations on the surface, that is living in stillness, a purity, stillness, even a silence of the deep wide freedom of the Self. And so to be able to listen to it you have to become still, as still as you can and then even more still and you can't do that in the middle of difficulty. You have to practise becoming still, so that the access to that stillness is available to you at all times, and that practice you may call it a meditation, you may call it a concentration, you may call it a contemplation, you may just call it chilling out; you sit quietly just lean back and rest deep stillness within and and become conscious of the one question - why am I here? you don't need to formulate it but just who am I? why am I here? what's important for me? whatever form the question takes place or just without any formulation of question just feel that which is truly you truly you in a sense that it is immortal everlasting essentially true depending on nothing else. Simply feel. Or perhaps the easiest way to feel it is to feel that part within you that loves the Divine Mother and feels itself her child. And we all have that part. So simply feel which part deep within you feels this. I am Mother's child. I love the Divine Mother. I belong to Her. I have no other existence other than belonging to Her. I have no other purpose even other than belonging to Her. And you feel that and just stay in it and in its stillness, in its purity, and its satisfaction of joy, calm, clear, free. Spend some time every day. If you can spend time every day to eat food, and sleep of course, if you can spend time to eat food, you can also spend time to nourish yourself from that food, soul food. Isn't it? Even if it's a few seconds. Spend some time every day. If you can, slip it into a routine between two things. It doesn't matter what time it is. Every day after I finish my shower, before I start my day, I take a moment to concentrate. Maybe if that's the time when you're always late and you're always rushed, fine. When I come home from work, I take a shower to wash off the day and then I sit quietly. 30 seconds. If you're extremely tired, 10 seconds. And if you're more fresh, you can go for a few minutes and enjoy that communion, feeling yourself a child of the Divine Mother. And then go to bed, go to sleep or whatever it is. Proceed with the rest of your evening. Slot it into your routine of life and whatever the time it is. Stick to it, even if it is for 10 seconds. When that habit is cultivated, the access to that Presence, the connection of its influence to your surface parts becomes more and more clear and formed and active. Then in the midst of activity, in the midst of confusion, in the midst of this clash of values and forces, you will turn and feel because it's there. It is always there. It is always unerring, never makes a mistake. That's the one thing we always have. And this can be accessed, it can be felt without any other spiritual development of higher ranges of consciousness. This is our gift. This is our true guide. If not for this, life would have no purpose and humanity would have long ago perished, losing itself in all kinds of confusions. Because it is there, life is not only meaningful and fulfilling, but life has a purpose so wonderful that whatever difficulties come before us are worth it in order to be able to do that which we have come to do to realise. Think about this, put this into practice and then nothing in life, no addiction, no difficulty, no trap, no attraction will ever fool you. Whether you pass through it or you avoid it, it will never fool you because you will know what is true always within you. We will take a moment to concentrate on this Presence within us. There, where we know ourselves a child of the Divine Mother and feel our love for the Divine Mother and then naturally for all that is beautiful and sacred and true in the whole world and the world itself as a manifestation of Her sacred presence.

Alina (1:43:51):
Namaste.

[Joel] Namaste.

[Sraddhalu] Namaste.